second-generation mild hybrid system Vs. Fusion Hybrid

[ndwariga]

GM is launching three hybrid systems next year.

1. Voltec
2. Two mode for sedan and FWD small suv applications
3. Second Generation BAS

I am concerned for Ford, and sort of happy for GM becouse with the second generation BAS, its said to provide 15% to 20% improvement in fuel economy and that is right into fusion hybrid territory for malibu. ( currently 34 mpg highway 24 mpg city) and suddently you are talking 39 mpg highway and 30 mpg city for a meager $1500.00 cost, comparted to the $10,000 or so premium you pay for a full series hybrid.
Generally, Ford should be concerned and look into developing on licensing GM's Mild BAS system.
In its third generation (2015) this system could easily match Toyota Synergy system.

So far no one has an advanced system anything close to two mode system, and no one has voltec technology not to mention they GM just miniturized their hydrogen drive to the size of a normal 4 banger system and think it will be commercial relatively quickly (2015)

If folks are not careful, GM is going to dominate the electric vehicle market since they have a multi pronged approach to the whole market.

[2b2]

umm... three & 1/2 things, NDW

I'm pretty sure I just read that the Hybrid Malibu was cancelled... quick google LINK < says fleet only now

looked at the BAS-2 article and didn't see MPG
but
the Milan/Fusion Hybrids' are 41/36 - ie 41 city / 36 hwy

Could you have reversed the GM numbers?
Or will the improvement be mainly City?
It's my understanding that hybrids do practically nothing good for hwy mileage.

&
I'm betting that Fomoco will have a plug-in hybrid ready for intro at about the same time that the Volt comes out

[ndwariga]

umm... three & 1/2 things, NDW

I'm pretty sure I just read that the Hybrid Malibu was cancelled... quick google LINK < says fleet only now

looked at the BAS-2 article and didn't see MPG
but
the Milan/Fusion Hybrids' are 41/36 - ie 41 city / 36 hwy

Could you have reversed the GM numbers?
Or will the improvement be mainly City?
It's my understanding that hybrids do practically nothing good for hwy mileage.

&
I'm betting that Fomoco will have a plug-in hybrid ready for intro at about the same time that the Volt comes out

I am using information I have gathered over time, there is talk of the new Buick Regal launching the system again, so, I am using those numbers and comparing to the current mild malibu numbers, putting 17.5% above those numbers, also taking into account that this is a system going to assist in highway driving, unlike Gen 1.
I know Ford is on top of its game, but they should not underestimate GM. They seem bent on some serious hybrid crusade.

[laserwizard]

GM is launching three hybrid systems next year.

1. Voltec
2. Two mode for sedan and FWD small suv applications
3. Second Generation BAS

I am concerned for Ford, and sort of happy for GM becouse with the second generation BAS, its said to provide 15% to 20% improvement in fuel economy and that is right into fusion hybrid territory for malibu. ( currently 34 mpg highway 24 mpg city) and suddently you are talking 39 mpg highway and 30 mpg city for a meager $1500.00 cost, comparted to the $10,000 or so premium you pay for a full series hybrid.
Generally, Ford should be concerned and look into developing on licensing GM's Mild BAS system.
In its third generation (2015) this system could easily match Toyota Synergy system.

So far no one has an advanced system anything close to two mode system, and no one has voltec technology not to mention they GM just miniturized their hydrogen drive to the size of a normal 4 banger system and think it will be commercial relatively quickly (2015)

If folks are not careful, GM is going to dominate the electric vehicle market since they have a multi pronged approach to the whole market.

Let's not get excited about Government Motors' technology - first, until recently, GM has not built a hybrid vehicle despite the marketing and the labels - GM nearly committed fraud (and the consumers have seen through the charade) by claiming their vehicles were hybrids when they were essentially start assist and nothing more. And while Government Motors has wasted development dollars on these frauds and putting hybrid systems in trucks and SUV's, Ford is on its SECOND GENERATION TRUE HYBRIDS and has left the competition in the dust with them.

Second, Ford has electric vehicles coming on board - which will offer an interesting comparison with the VaporVolt which to date is a promise and not a reality despite the fraudulent 230 mpg claim that Government Motors has offered to the public. Perhaps the VaporVolt will be as it is described, but Government Motors is stuffing an off the shelf engine into the system that is way too large for its purpose and not efficiently packaged. From what I've seen the VaporVolt is not impressive - especially considering that most of what VaporVolt can do, the Ford Fusion Hybrid already does and for nearly $12k less!

Third, Government Motors will still trail Ford in the deployment of small, fuel efficient B and C class vehicles and with Ford pioneering technology like laser ignition systems and other improvements on internal combustion technologies - not to mention ecoboost and Direct injection systems, Government Motors is still trailing Ford.

Fourth, Ford has a superior development system - the world's best automotive computer design and implementation system bar none - Government Motors was squandering money on CTS station wagons and coupes while Ford was using money on systems improvement. So while Government Motors might have an electric vehicle first, it won't even be world class - the Nissan Leaf will be superior to the Volt and Government Motors will still have the stigma of stealing $50 billion in taxpayer funds.

Fifth, and most important, Ford is streamlined and has a plan and is executing the plan. Government Motors is a morass of confusion and divergent interests and lacks clear leadership. My money remains on Ford - not because it is the company I drive and buy, but because it is the best Domestic company bar none and is poised to become one of the most efficient in the world. I also believe that Ford Employees now believe that they can achieve anything and won't allow Government Motors a leg up on them anywhere.

Government Motors - Vaporware by the dozens - promises all over and nothing to show for it.

[ndwariga]

Let's not get excited about Government Motors' technology - first, until recently, GM has not built a hybrid vehicle despite the marketing and the labels - GM nearly committed fraud (and the consumers have seen through the charade) by claiming their vehicles were hybrids when they were essentially start assist and nothing more. And while Government Motors has wasted development dollars on these frauds and putting hybrid systems in trucks and SUV's, Ford is on its SECOND GENERATION TRUE HYBRIDS and has left the competition in the dust with them.

Second, Ford has electric vehicles coming on board - which will offer an interesting comparison with the VaporVolt which to date is a promise and not a reality despite the fraudulent 230 mpg claim that Government Motors has offered to the public. Perhaps the VaporVolt will be as it is described, but Government Motors is stuffing an off the shelf engine into the system that is way too large for its purpose and not efficiently packaged. From what I've seen the VaporVolt is not impressive - especially considering that most of what VaporVolt can do, the Ford Fusion Hybrid already does and for nearly $12k less!

Third, Government Motors will still trail Ford in the deployment of small, fuel efficient B and C class vehicles and with Ford pioneering technology like laser ignition systems and other improvements on internal combustion technologies - not to mention ecoboost and Direct injection systems, Government Motors is still trailing Ford.

Fourth, Ford has a superior development system - the world's best automotive computer design and implementation system bar none - Government Motors was squandering money on CTS station wagons and coupes while Ford was using money on systems improvement. So while Government Motors might have an electric vehicle first, it won't even be world class - the Nissan Leaf will be superior to the Volt and Government Motors will still have the stigma of stealing $50 billion in taxpayer funds.

Fifth, and most important, Ford is streamlined and has a plan and is executing the plan. Government Motors is a morass of confusion and divergent interests and lacks clear leadership. My money remains on Ford - not because it is the company I drive and buy, but because it is the best Domestic company bar none and is poised to become one of the most efficient in the world. I also believe that Ford Employees now believe that they can achieve anything and won't allow Government Motors a leg up on them anywhere.

Government Motors - Vaporware by the dozens - promises all over and nothing to show for it.

That is where you go wrong. GM has vast engineering resourses. No other company on earth compares.
Do not get me wrong, its amazing what Ford does with the little they have. That said, GM invented the Hybrid concept. With trains, now owned by GE.
They went on to make Hydrid and CNG buses and now dominate city transport in the US with their CNG and Hybrid buses. They have been building Hybrids longer than Toyota.

Lastly, I am glad Ford does not make the mistake of underestimating GM's Engineering capabilities.
GM may be slow, but when they hit a market, they hit with a Vagance.

Take the SUV market, GM came in late and at the peak of it, they controlled a whooping 65% of the market.

Even as we speak, if you count their chinese sales under GM brands, they are still the largest automotive company company in the world.

They also have a pipeline full of small efficient cars. Full. Do not count GM out just yet. I am sure Mullaly is watching them like a Hawk.

On global engineering capabilities, GM owns one of the fastest cray computers in the world. Ford does not compare. Do not even lie to yourself. Ford definately is more efficient, but from a platform stand point GM is ahead of Ford in Global intergration. You got to be very careful to not to under estimate compatation. The CTS wagon is not a waste, its one more way to pay for a platform. The only area GM has not intergrated its global vehicles is RWD platforms between Cadillac and Holden, And Cadillac needs to use a more expensive layout to compete with the bigger boys.

Otherwise, all GM brands are now running on global platforms accross all markets, utilizing same powertrains, and components. Ford has still not intergrated its FWD platforms accross its global markets. If you look at ecoboost, and look at the Turbo Di ecotecs, power to displacement ratios, you will quickly understand GM is ahead of the game, also look at the 2.8 liter powerplant going into the SRX, DI turbo,... Its not ecotec, but you cannot urgue with its numbers. especially since its much more fuel efficient due to smaller displacement.

Nissan leaf superior to the Volt? you are kidding, right? They are not competing. The Volt is completely different from the leaf.

Lastly GM now seem to have a board that gets it.

You might have misunderstood my post. I did not say GM was ahead of Ford. All I said is, they should not be ignored, becouse they seem to be on a roll with their Hybrids. It may take time, but knowing them, they will rule when they are done.

Let me give you an example. When the C5 corvette came out, GM was using the small block which was by all accounts inferior to the DOHC V8's from Ford, Japan, Europe. What did they do? They took to improving their Engine. Racing. First off, they started the C5R program, what came out of that is what the resulted in a 403 HP, 400 HP Cadillac escalade all aluminum powerplant or the 505 HP, 500 lbs ft of Tq 26 mpg power plant in the Z06, that will screem at the same rews a honda v tech will and is more compact than Camry 4 banger. In a mere 7 years.
That Engine has evolved into a technological marvel, in the ZR-1. its direct injection, its VVTi, intake and outlet VVT, Toyota even said VVT could not be done in a pushrod set up. Today their new V10 Supercar cannot produce enough power to match a ZR-1. No one today would dare question a GM V8 small block engine. Its a technological marvel to behold.


GM may be down, but one would be foolish to count them out. The cost of BAS is really going to be meaningful if it can improve mileage to 20% above where it is now. Its not going to be a joke, if it can knock 40 mpg or 30 mpg city in a malibu. Its going to be a serious player at that point.

[Z0mg Seth]

And you think Ford will sit there with the current generation of the hybrid system as other companies up the ante in fuel economy and engines? No. GM has much to worry about with Ford. Especially if Ford starts turning EB engines into hybrids and when things become more centralized as vehicle platforms/designs/engines converge in 2012.

[ndwariga]

And you think Ford will sit there with the current generation of the hybrid system as other companies up the ante in fuel economy and engines? No. GM has much to worry about with Ford. Especially if Ford starts turning EB engines into hybrids and when things become more centralized as vehicle platforms/designs/engines converge in 2012.

True its a race. I knid of know in the back of my mind that Ford has the right attitude at this time.
So this is going to be interesting race.

All I am saying is, Ford is not a clear winner here yet. Unless people have a plan to compete well with GM, by 2015, they will be way ahead of the game.

[ausrutherford]

Ford does have its 3rd gen hybrid system and the plugin coming in 3 years. As well as the electric only models coming this summer.
Gm has said they wont make money on the first Volt.

Well have to see what ends up happening.

[ausrutherford]

I see that GMI has found this...

[Mbukukanyau]

I see that GMI has found this...

The issue is simply whether GM is trying hard or not. I would say, they are trying really hard and might come out ahead. That is not to say Ford does not have a chance.